Brown Girl Empowered
Welcome to Brown Girl Empowered the self-help podcast that blends insightful guidance with real-life stories, hosted by Manpreet Dhaliwal, a Brown South Asian psychotherapist with a passion for helping you thrive. In each episode, Manpreet dives deep into powerful topics like mental health, breakups, self-love, confidence, leadership, and more, offering practical tools and heartfelt advice to empower you on your personal growth journey.
Whether she’s sharing her expertise solo or featuring inspiring guests, Manpreet’s mission is to help you break free from limiting beliefs and step into your true power. With her warm, relatable style and years of experience as a therapist and educator, Manpreet is here to guide you towards a life of authenticity, resilience, and self-compassion.
Tune in, transform your mindset, and unlock the best version of yourself with Brown Girl Empowered.
About Manpreet Dhaliwal:
Manpreet is a brown woman who holds a Master’s in Social Work and a Bachelor of Arts. With years of experience, she’s dedicated to making mental health resources accessible and relatable for all.
Manpreet Dhaliwal has worked as a therapist for many years and has served as a college instructor in British Columbia.
Instagram: ManpreetDhaliwal.88
Email: dhaliwalcounselling@gmail.com
Psychotherapy Services: www.dhaliwalcounselling.com
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Brown Girl Empowered
The Hidden Impact of Ancestral Wounds: Intergenerational Trauma Feat. Risha Dave
In this conversation, Manpreet invites registered psychotherapist Risha Dave to discuss the concept of intergenerational trauma. They both explore how trauma can be passed down through generations and its impact on mental health. The discussion highlights the cultural silence surrounding emotional processing, particularly in South Asian communities, and the effects of immigration and poverty on mental health. Risha emphasizes the manifestations of trauma, such as anxiety and depression, and the importance of coping strategies, including therapy and self-care, to address these issues. The conversation also touches on the mind-body connection and the need for individuals to find healthy outlets for their emotions. In this conversation, Risha Dave and Manpreet explore the significance of self-care, the gaps in research regarding intergenerational trauma, and the importance of understanding the emotional struggles faced by racialized communities. Risha shares her journey into mental health, emphasizing the need for representation and tailored approaches in therapy. The discussion highlights the complexities of healing from historical trauma and the value of open conversations about mental health.
Instagram: @manpreetdhaliwal.88
Emails, questions:
Dhaliwalcounselling@gmail.com
Services: www.dhaliwalcounselling.com
Psychology Today Profile:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/therapists/manpreet-dhaliwal-surrey-bc/332001
Welcome everyone. Today we have a registered psychotherapist, risha, here with us to discuss intergenerational trauma. So welcome, risha. Welcome for providing your time and your expertise to this podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, manpreet. I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. So today we're going to be talking about intergenerational trauma. I feel like it's so important to go beyond just getting information, getting knowledge and really exploring the trauma experiences our communities have been through as a collective and understanding how those experiences affect us. So, before I get too ahead of with this, can you explain what intergenerational trauma is?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so basically, what happens is that we, or any bad, sad, scary things that have happened or any traumatic things that have happened in maybe our ancestors lives, our grandparents lives, do tend to shape the way we also view the world and the way we relate to other people.
Speaker 2:So trauma can be passed down, just like resilience trauma can be passed down from one person on to the next. So we'll take into consideration um colonization in india, for example. So a lot of the stuff that maybe our grandparents, our great grandparents, would have experienced any fear that they may have, might have experienced any gender based violence or violence in in general that they would have experienced can be passed down to us if it's not processed in a way that can be integrated into the mind and the body. So we see this with resiliencezilians as well, which is awesome, because what we, what we're seeing, is that with um breaking intergenerational cycles or breaking or, you know, working, processing through those intergenerational traumas, that that we are no longer passing on all this stuff to our children, which is really cool okay, so that's what the research is showing okay, yeah, and then um, the other piece is that with intergenerational trauma, we're noticing that, like I don't have, a lot of my clients have experienced or have mentioned that they're not really sure like what it is.
Speaker 2:That's like what. They can't find the root cause right. They can't even find like the stem, like there's something there but you can't really pinpoint what it is. That's like upsetting them or like the concern, and we often just look at the bigger picture and it's usually the intergenerational pieces that are coming up, that are living within us, that we just might not have a name for it because it's not actually ours.
Speaker 1:But we're holding it and I feel like in South Asian communities, like the past is not really talked about, whether it's the experiences that grandparents have had. It's usually a very sensitive topic. Um, can you speak to that like? Um?
Speaker 2:we're often taught that we shouldn't be talking about our emotions, right, we shouldn't, um, talk about these like bad, sad, scary things that have happened because they're in the past.
Speaker 2:But they're not. They're very much affecting our present day life, right, and um. The other piece is, like, if we think about our grandparents, um, they might not have had the privilege to actually process and talk about these like these big things, right, because they're, and and I'm talking very generally speaking as well um, let's say, they have households of like seven children, right, even more or less. Right, like they're taking care of, they're raising these kids, they're taking care of the home, they're like having to work to get food on the table, so there's really not as much time, yeah, um, or like even the value of, of, or like the understanding of what the value is, to process these, these emotions or these stuck points. Right, and especially in men, we're noticing and this is again very like heteronormative research, right, unfortunately, but this is what we have that there's a lot of the toxic masculinity that comes up, that's also passed down yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we're just not taught how to have these conversations yeah, and you listed so many reasons why um, like one thing could be poverty, right, the resources might have not been there, and I think, like in india, like um counseling wasn't, it wasn't really a thing right until like recently, and um was a thing uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Well that they but people thought that counseling was only for people who are in like active psychosis yes, yeah, yeah, correct, you had to be quote, be quote, unquote, crazy to actually go to therapy Like something has to be severely wrong with you to be like in counseling, which is really sad, right, and we're noticing it's changing, but there's still that stigma.
Speaker 1:Yes, most definitely. And there's efforts to break that stigma as well. And finances, like you said, poverty might have been a barrier to getting that help and survival as well. Right, sometimes when a person's just trying to survive, they're not really thinking about processing their emotions. It might just be like going through the various events in their lives from, you know, the colonization, and then there's the immigration and all of those traumas that compile up. So, yeah, there's so many different reasons why. And even nowadays I notice like, and even nowadays I notice like, if a person tries to, you know, talk about the past, it's kind of like a very sensitive topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Something that comes up for a lot of folks is the preservation or the importance of the preservation of family image Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So if we're talking about the past, it means that we're probably talking about how our parents didn't do what they, what that child needed at the time.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:That, yes, they did the best that they could and it wasn't enough. But to say that it wasn't enough, to like, like, actually say that out loud or recognize that it it can feel so uncomfortable as if we're like disrespecting our elders. It can feel like we're dishonoring them, right like it can feel like we're not grateful for the sacrifices and it's not that it's not that it's they must have. They probably did do the best that they could. A lot of the parents under the stressors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely like moving to a new country, for example, on their own, and they're like 17 19 years old with, like, not a lot of money.
Speaker 2:Kids at a much younger age too yeah, and so I can imagine that it was a lot right, like how do you even go from maybe living in like an intergenerational home with a lot of people around, or like even in a community, right, um, where you have a lot of people around, where you can just knock people's doors and like get the help that you need or not even have to ask?
Speaker 2:but yeah moving here or to a different country. Without those resources, their resources, their time and energy is going to be spent. It's there's not going to be a lot left when you're coming home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's just, you know, surviving day to day. You know, immigrating here, get trying to get a job, trying to meet the finances, it can all. It's just survival. When you're in survival mode, you're not really thinking about your emotions or your feelings, you're just trying to get through the day and um, yeah, yeah and um. We talk about, like, colonization affecting individuals, poverty affecting individuals, immigration and so many different events, uh, in the past that has affected individuals and, um, like you said, we may be experiencing something and we might not be able to pinpoint what it is. So we have to kind of go on this journey of, you know, unraveling our past before us, right? So, yeah, in terms of psychology and like the um, psychological pain, can you speak to that like, uh, intergenerational trauma that is passed on, whether it's depression, uh, etc.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can look like depression, absolutely look it can look like your body shutting down it can look like chronic illness or chronic fatigue.
Speaker 2:It can look like anxiety as well, and so it might even manifest in, you know, as I mentioned, chronic illness. So it can manifest in physical symptoms, absolutely, um, and it can. It can look like depression, anxiety, it can look like anger as well, or like rage, because rage is older, right, it's been festering for for some time. Um, it can also. It can. It can also look like, um, feeling dysregulated, right, and so maybe even like noticing the mood swings, for example, or feeling like we're irritable quite often. Um, that that can be another way that it's translated. Um, and then we also see it in a more, I guess, more um, obvious way. Uh, would be like through parenting.
Speaker 2:So how many times have you heard someone say like I'm not gonna be like my parents, and then what happens when they have kids, or like even in their adult relationships? Like, you notice, those things come back up. So you can, you might notice it in that way too, right, and and there's also like the people pleasing, I think, is a big piece here. So not just with intergenerational trauma, but absolutely with intergenerational trauma as well um, there's people pleasing involved, because a lot of the people pleasing for maybe our great-grandparents would have been survival right fawning yeah like I need to stay safe, I need to survive this moment, so I'm just gonna do what people say it's for the greater good.
Speaker 2:It's. It's the best thing for my family. We'll hear that the collectivist values come up in that sense, so yeah, give me great, right like.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of value in collectivist culture and I think there's something to pick apart there too, when it comes to like the people pleasing that's a great um interesting, um sort of idea you brought up um this fact that that behavior that people pleasing would probably come up from just trying to survive, um that, yeah, yeah, so sorry I interrupted you while you were speaking, no that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's just, it's just interesting, right. That way, I think we can pick that apart, yeah we can pick up, uh, some of the people-pleasing tendencies that we notice now, especially as women and I'm using that term.
Speaker 1:It actually doesn't have to be heteronormative, but we're noticing that a lot, especially in women, because it might not feel safe to be any other way yeah, and then that ties back into, like gender-based violence, domestic violence yeah and um, you're talking about, uh, that trapped anger as well from past trauma, and so how do we release that anger? I always talk about women getting into martial arts and releasing it in that way, and it's like us women we're always told to suppress our anger, told me to told to be nice, sweet and stuff. So when I I find these outlets to be amazing. So what are your thoughts on that mind body connection?
Speaker 2:oh, there's so much like value in that, yeah there's so much weight that like that, that holds like the mind body connection and like somatic practices can can actually offer, Um, and I think it really depends on the person, Depending on the person sometimes having like the big explosive anger. So that might be like kickboxing or martial arts, right, Do things like that might feel very uncomfortable. So for some it is that right, it's running, it's doing like the HIIT workouts, for example, high intensity exercises, and for some people it might be breathing it might be practicing breathing.
Speaker 2:It might be practicing meditation, it might be journaling. So there are many different ways that people can actually move through these things, but it was going to depend on the person Speaking. Personally, I really had a hard time doing any high intensity workouts for some time because I would just end up in tears. So any boxing anything like time because I would just end up in tears. So any boxing anything like that I would just end up in tears. Because there was so much anger and rage that was coming up that it was so overwhelming to work out.
Speaker 2:So the yoga was a lot more helpful for me in those moments because I could always just come back to my mat right and and just ground myself. I had the skills to do that at the time.
Speaker 1:So, um, come back to my mat right, um, but now that I've worked through some of this, more through therapy, for example, through my own, my own, um, personal development, the high intensity workouts don't bring me to tears as much as it would, right, yeah, yeah, so we need some sort of outlet, whatever works for us, right, to be able to process the, you know, ancestral generational trauma in a healthy way, right, but, but, like you said, it can be like anything like poetry, writing, yoga, anything that releases that energy, right, that trapped energy. So there's ways we get it right and then there's ways we get it wrong. Kind, right, um. So what are the coping um strategies individuals use to deal with this trauma that you feel in our communities?
Speaker 2:so I think a big piece here is the, the need for therapy, and maybe even the need for a therapist who does somatic work as well, who's familiar with that kind of work, because there is a mind-body connection and with trauma it does get stuck. So we have like the day-to-day information that kind of gets just integrated, filed right into a cabinet. That could be like what you ate for lunch yesterday, like you don't know exactly. But then you think about it You're like, oh yeah, that's what I had for lunch, yeah.
Speaker 2:You can find it right. It's like filed neatly With BATS at Scary Things. Unfortunately it is not filed the same way as, like um, regular day-to-day information would be filed. And that's because with day-to-day information, when you're feeling grounded, you're feeling relaxed, you're using your prefrontal cortex right. So you're using this part of the brain where you are able to, um, make decisions. Your, your decision making is like, not impacted um, you, you are able to, you know, make judgments. Reasoning, logical thinking is all part that, all that is happening in your prefrontal cortex. So it's a lot easier to file day-to-day information. When something bad, sad, scary happens, there's another part of our brain, the amygdala, that turns on Like that's our security guard. So now we've got the flight, fight, freeze or fawn response saying, okay, there's a danger, there's a threat here. We need to keep ourselves safe, we need to survive this moment. There's no time for logic reasoning making right. In that sense it's either like we run, we fight, we freeze, we fawn. So in that moment it's really helpful because it's going to keep you safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in that moment with the bear, let's say in yeah, the forest um that's going to keep you safe in that moment with the bear, let's say, in the forest. That's going to keep you safe in that moment. But what happens sometimes is that that incident will not get processed the same way as the day-to-day information will, because your amygdala did the work, so that's where we notice we're feeling stuck. Your amygdala did the work, so that's where we notice we're feeling stuck. When we're feeling stuck, now we're noticing we're generalizing or feeling hyper aware with threats, right Like we're seeing the bear everywhere, even though we're seeing it all. So that's kind of where, like you'll notice, and that's something a little bit, little bit different right with the bear, like that's not intergenerational.
Speaker 2:but it could be if our grandparents had experienced that, and yeah processed it exactly, yeah so a big piece again. Just going back is like the therapy, I think, is absolutely. I'm biased, I guess, but I think it's like absolutely helpful. Yeah, because if you have someone who can actually guide you through the bats at scary things in a very processed, structured, safe way what if you're not overwhelmed? Yeah, exactly, and if you do get overwhelmed, you have someone there who's experienced, who can help you come back down yeah, yeah, grounds you and yeah yeah and the outside of therapy would be self-care yeah, going back to the basics, yes and that's something we're not good at no, definitely.
Speaker 2:You are based on that because it's just been times of survival in the past, so it's like that's what you're used to as a community and there's a collectivist piece too right that like yeah self-care is selfish because you're not doing it for the greater good, you're doing it for yourself, or that you know I need to tend to everybody else and I don't have time for myself especially as a woman yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so the self-care piece, I think, is something I always will come back to with my clients, with like people in my life. I'm like what did you do for yourself today or this week or this month? Right?
Speaker 2:yeah oftentimes it's like, oh I, I drank like two sips of water. I'm like, okay, that's a start yeah, that's back to the basics yeah, going back are you taking your medication on time every?
Speaker 1:day consistently.
Speaker 2:Are you um, how's your personal hygiene, how's your sleep hygiene?
Speaker 1:and those are the things that, like, we don't realize how much they actually affect your life, until you actually have a good night's sleep or you're actually are hydrated yeah, exactly so it's so many different things for healing from this historical trauma that we have to look at right, like you're talking about the therapy part, the mind-body connection, as well as the self-care, and not just being stuck in that pattern of surviving every day, but getting out of that pattern. Stuck in that pattern of surviving every day, but getting out of that pattern. And, yeah, so you discussed some strategies like the mind-body connection and going to therapy. In terms of the research, what direction do you think the research should go towards when it comes to intergenerational trauma?
Speaker 2:I would love to see more work on racialized folks, more research on racialized folks. I think that would make a really big difference because a lot of the research that is being done or has been done is Eurocentric, honestly right. Or even if it is done in our communities, we tend to miss a huge chunk of the folks that exist which are like LGBTQ plus folks.
Speaker 2:We don't see that much. We don't see a lot of research for folks as that, so I would love to see more research on that with folks who look like us.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's where, like that's where the magic happens. That's where I think we'll find the research and the findings that are really more like, specified and focused on, maybe even like second generation immigrants in Canada, right like we. If we were to niche down, I think that would be really cool. I think that's something that's really needed and yeah, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 1:There's not much in the research and you know, um, it's just recently that, um, you know, we're talking about trauma more often in our communities and whatnot, and so this research is really needed and, um, yeah, and these conversations are so needed, uh, because that's the one way we can empower ourselves, right, like having these conversations, building that knowledge and understanding how we can help ourselves and, you know, and our communities heal, because there is a lot of healing that needs to be done, as you stated.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot of you know, built up anger, a lot of domestic violence, a lot of mental health, and so, yeah, yeah. Do you feel like there's something you want to add in terms of intergenerational trauma and what we might be getting wrong about it, or do you think the conversation that's a great question and I think that I'm not sure it's that we're getting something wrong.
Speaker 2:I don't have enough information.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:I think that's what might be happening. So, for example, like actually, you know, when I think about mindset or the way we frame intergenerational trauma, it sounds again, again like we're blaming our ancestors like then there's that's not. That's not it, and I think that's also why we struggle like even healing from it and talking about it, because again it goes back to like representation of the family, right or the image, and so if we start talking about it, oh no, people are going to know that not everything's perfect.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. And so it's acknowledging the pain right that our ancestors experienced.
Speaker 2:And acknowledging the privilege that we now have to process those things for them as well yeah. I think that's like a really, really cool piece because it sounds really daunting and it is. It is. I'm not saying it isn't right because you know, like a lot again with a lot of clients are like I'm angry, right, I was so angry when I first started therapy in a sense, because I was like why do I have to do this?
Speaker 1:Why can't?
Speaker 2:anyone else before me do this.
Speaker 1:Why do I?
Speaker 2:have to have all these feelings, and everybody else was just able to ignore it, and I can't, and so there was a lot of frustration there. But again, what a privilege it is to actually have the time to feel these feelings.
Speaker 1:What a gift. It is a gift yeah, a gift, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I also want to mention like, when we talk about intergenerational trauma, we talk about this research, we talk about like the advocacy work it is largely based on like feminist approaches, black feminism more specifically, like queer revolutions, right. So for a lot of folks like, especially when I think about like Black feminism, there's some research done about like the angry Black woman, right, quote unquote and how, like anger was just not an accepted thing you cannot be angry.
Speaker 2:You cannot show your anger, because then what happens is that you're like dehumanized, you're not no longer believed, you're like considered hysteric. It's all the same stuff that's coming up in our communities as well yeah that if we show anger, it's we're ungrateful, we um yeah, we're not respectful. We're bringing dishonor to the family mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:But anger is a messenger. It is telling us something is wrong, that there is an injustice happening and yeah so yeah, yeah, absolutely I think about it with men too.
Speaker 2:Right, that, like anger is a very common expressed emotion in men, but it's also frowned upon at the same time. But you're right, it's so much pent-up stuff, it's so much stuff that these folks are carrying that of course they're going to feel so angry, of course they're going to have like a low window of tolerance.
Speaker 1:And what does that lead to when it's not resolved?
Speaker 2:It can lead to domestic violence.
Speaker 2:It can lead to high suicide rates. Violence it can lead to high suicide rates. It can lead to depression and burnout that's just not talked about. It can lead to chronic illness. It can lead to so many different things. It depends on the person. Yeah, but there was some research shown um regarding like anger, especially for like immigrants, or first generation immigrants, um from india to uh canada. Um that there was a lot of anger there for men, and this was this was researched based on on like um that was geared towards men my apologies, um and toxic masculinity, and they were noticing that men showed more anger when they moved here than they were in their home country and that they were also like like their partners were more at risk of domestic abuse or violence moving here than they were at home. Because there's like it's really hard, first of all, I get a job right. It's really hard first of all, to get a job right.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's really hard to settle. Yeah, and then these folks are the folks who are like doctors in their home countries and now they're coming here. They can't find any jobs, their credentials are not accepted because systemic racism and barriers right, yeah and and now they're driving uber. Yeah, nothing wrong with that, but going from having done so much schooling and being hurt yeah a doctor, yeah, yeah, and then coming here and then realizing there's nothing out there and now you have to drive uber for 16 hours a day.
Speaker 1:There's gonna be so much anger and frustration yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely yeah, so it it does impact individuals, this adjustment and all this trauma right that individuals have gone through in our communities, and so I think it's really important that we're having this conversation and going deep into what intergenerational trauma is, because you know it's thrown around a lot, but you know we don't really go deep into what it is, and you know how it affects individuals. Well, now, there is information out there, but I feel like this conversation is so important and breaking it down, and so I'm so glad you, you know, gave your time to this podcast to discuss this topic and discuss you know what intergenerational trauma is, the symptoms, and you know the healing practices and research as well. I'm wondering if you want to share anything about yourself. Risha inspired you to get into this field.
Speaker 2:Yes, I, as a young girl, I'm one of those people who just knew I wanted to help other people.
Speaker 1:What that meant.
Speaker 2:I didn't know, but I knew.
Speaker 2:I wanted to help other people and I have a very specific memory of like when I was in elementary school and my like the friends around me, their parents were getting separated or divorced like a lot at that time, and like I remember at the time being, like I want to help families stay together, like that was my thing. I was like I really want to help people stay together and obviously like very naive, like it's much more complex than that, right, and it's a bad thing if your family doesn't stay together. Sometimes it's actually really helpful and healthy for, yeah, families to separate, um, I obviously at like first or second grade did not know that, um, but I, that's kind of what, like I I've just always wanted to to do this kind of work, um, and so when I got into like the mental health space, the more I was I've been, I've been in this space for about 10 years now in like agencies, um, uh, like non-profit work, um, in a lot of different capacities, right, and when I started my psychotherapy practices or, um, that was about five years ago, so the more work I did, I was very fortunate because I got a really cool practicum placement, um, that was focused on trauma, oh and and so I got a lot of like education and like practical skills very early in my career, I would say. And the more I worked with trauma and the more I worked with people who looked like me, I was like there is something there. I feel so energized by this work.
Speaker 2:So in 2023, I launched my private practice because that gave me an opportunity to really niche down. Working for other community agencies you don't really get that choice that's sort of who you're going to work with or not, to the same extent at least. Um. And so I created my private practice, really wanting to niche down and say, like, I want to focus on South Asian mental health, I want to focus on South Asian mental health for women.
Speaker 2:And so the more I worked with people who looked like me, the more I worked in this space, I noticed, like the intergenerational trauma, the people pleasing, the self-care were all things that like comes up like so often right In different ways, and so that's kind of just what I've like made my practice about, because I think it's just really cool work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great to hear how it started, from you as a young child, you know, wanting to help and then moving forward in your psychotherapy practice. And where are you located? Again, sorry, I know our time zones are different.
Speaker 2:That's okay, I'm in Ontario. So our practice is fully virtual right now. We actually just expanded to an over five team members, including me, which is really cool, because now we get to offer couples therapy, we get to offer family therapy, group therapy. Everybody on the team has different things to offer, so one of the biggest things that I was like really, really excited to be able to offer was um support for folks with addiction, or their caregivers or their loved ones.
Speaker 2:Um and that's something that I would like. That's also something very dear to my heart and I think, um, for a lot of brown people, it's probably something that is like hits home for them, right, and so I was really excited to be able to offer like to have that right to have a team member, especially, who can offer their support for folks who are struggling.
Speaker 1:That was wonderful. It was wonderful hearing your story. Thank you for sharing your story with us, along with your knowledge and your expertise. You're welcome, um, so do you have any other last pieces of information you want to provide, or?
Speaker 2:no, I think that's it. I think you know, just to. I think there's there's so much um value in healing out loud and that's exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 1:You know, and even just by talking about this, so thank you again for having me thank you for devoting your time and your energy to this podcast episode and sharing your story, because I feel like our own personal stories as to how we've come in the space of therapy are important too, and so thank you, Risha. Thank you All right Okay.
